This is not really a blog post, but rather, a place for notes that I took when I was viewing two videos that are relevant to the Civics DNA blog 001 – bullying.
The first video is of Dr. Tony Volk, being interviewed by Chris Williamson on the ModernWisdom channel on YouTube. The second video is of Dr. Robert Sapolsky when he was giving a lecture in 2013. I assume the lecture was at Stanford University. Additional related videos will appear at the bottom, but were not used as source material as extensively as these two were, or were not even necessarily used per-se. For example, I remember listening to an interview by Andrew Huberman of Hubermanlab podcasts with Dr. Sapolsky, but now I cannot locate it. This is why notes of what one does use are important – know, not think.
- Definition of Bullying – (1:17) A deliberate aggressive attempt against a weaker target that causes harm, Goal Directed, where there is a power-imbalance and the target has a difficult time defending themselves
- Why do it? Send a message up in the dominance hierarchy.
- #2 doesn’t normally pick on #17 in the hierarchy – the point of the hierarchy is to settle these pecking order issues (2:31). Jose note: Burkean
- It signals to others that you are dangerous to compete with. (3:06) They pick a target that is a reasonable threat(3:19), but not fully competitive with the bully
- Over 80% of bullying happens when an audience is present(3:45). Performative (4:28).
- Three different axes: (6:35) Physically strong bullies will pick on a physically weak target. Socially strong bullies pick on a socially isolated person. Mentally quick will pick a mentally slow victim. Bullies are flexible in picking the right target for them.
- Bullies cycle through victims (5:56), and the more they cycle through victims, the more their reputation increases – leading to popularity and dominance..
- More likely to be bullied: less socially connected, more likely to have mental health issues(6:28), Younger, smaller (7:12). Adolescent: outside dating. Strong enough to have meaning (when that person is demeaned). (8:06) Some connected kids can protect other kids by being connected enough – say if a kid is connected to a girl the bully likes – the bully will not pick on that kid.
- (9:24) if you have some 8 year olds in a fist fight, it is not that physically damaging. But 18 year olds punching – bones may be broken. So instead, they adapt to less physical but harder to detect methods of bullying.
- (11:00) Low levels of Honesty/Humility (low HEXACO). (11:20)They believe they are better than other people and are willing to act on it. (11:38) If you weren’t such a crappy kid, then this wouldn’t be happening to you – happens across cultures – Canada, China, USA, Netherlands (12:07). This goes along with having power.
- Bullies gain in popularity when they bully(12:14). Also, they get corrupted with power when they gain power.
- (13:12) Bullies have more sex than non-bullies. Both boys and girls, both early adolescence and late adolescence. Both dominant boys and girls (13:40) use bullying to get sex.
- (15:58) the movie “Mean Girls” is the prototype for girls bullying
- (19:25) Honesty/Humility maps on your willingness to cheat – prisoner’s dilemma – wallet with 200 bucks – you selfishly benefit. The cost is that you get a reputation for being selfish.
- HEXACO – in https://youtu.be/BolREAEKAXQ?t=1315 -Low honesty/humility leads to Dark Triad (21:55) – Machiavellianism(scheming), Narcissism, Psychopathy. (22:53) “being bad” is basically the same as being low in Honesty/Humility (0.95 correlation) This low HonestyHumility = Dark Triad has been replicated in 17 different countries.
- (23:55) Boys are much more physical. Women are less direct, but boys can also be strategic about spread rumors.
- (24:52) Women often go after other women’s sexual reputation. Men go after their manliness. Evolutionary nature makes sense. Bullying someone makes you more likely to reproduce.
- (25:22) Greta Thunberg replied to Andrew Tate on Twitter – “you give off small dick energy” <- compensating for his high performance sports cars.
- (26:30) Darrogating chastity is nasty – impossible to prove that one is chaste.
- (27:27) Story about Lou Ferrigno – was relentlessly bullied for hearing loss – he spoke funny. But this wasn’t something he could punch his way out. Bullies find the maximal impact of their bullying. More pain of bullying = greater uplift for bully.
- (28:59) Was badly bullied – then opened up in a podcast. Got a heartfelt message after having been a bully to the podcaster in high school. (30:31) was smaller when he was a kid. Significantly less socially adept. But smarter (better grades). He acknowledges that he was easily a natural target.
- (31:31) it is almost as if bullies walk through life with a scanner – who is a good target? Who is a good target? Ahhh! Here’s a perfect target.
- (32:04) how common are kids who are both bullied and also bullies? Less than 30%. The dominant kids are picking on kids in a calculated, callous, predatory method.
- (32:58) if you’re high in HonestyHumility, you make other choices than bullying. Believe in fairness. DOn’t take advantage of people.
- (33:15) if you look at almost any action hero in Hollywood – high in Honesty/Humility. They have this noble side to them. That’s why we like them. John Wick – don’t touch his dog – we still like him because he’s honorable. This is the biggest cost for bullying. They’re good at dominance, but people don’t like them, because people recognize what they’re doing.
- (34:10) Unless you’re gaining from their power, most people don’t associate with the bully. People who do like the bully are getting something from the bully. Everyone else can see what is happening and they don’t generally respect it.
- (35:14) Bullying peaks 13-15 – then decreases..
- (35:55) Bully in elementary is generally predictive of being a bully in adulthood. (Honesty/Humility is low all throughout life for most people)
- (36:50) Question – Wealth, race, environment???? Wealthier kids are more likely to be bullies = they have power. Social status. Poverty is not a likely indicator of bullying – nope – instead wealth is. https://youtu.be/BolREAEKAXQ?t=2204
- Win at all costs sporting environments are more likely to promote bullying. Winner take all.
- If you have a role model who bullies other people, you are more likely to (see clip above) (37:55)
- Districts that went hard red for trump had an increase in racial bullying.(just before 38:28)
- (40:32) Dr. Volk gets students from business school to balance out their samples, and this brings in more people who are low in honesty/humility (business is a cutthroat environment).
- (40:55) All kids who were high in Honesty/Humility = almost no chance of being a bully. If they were low in Honesty/Humility and no parental monitoring = more bullying. Thus, parental involvement may reduce bullying.
- (52:32) social media and bullying – has made it really hard to track down bullies. School principals tell of a student bullied online – how can the principal shut it down? Much easier to do bullying behavior without being caught.
- Doesn’t seem to create *new* bullies. It just gives the existing kids with low Honesty/Humility more options.
- Those algorithms don’t show you a balanced view of life.
- Norway event – (59:23) government program to reduce bullying
- Spent money on it. Was effective. It was reduced by 30%-40% for three years
- Then the government stopped spending money, because it was expensive. Bullying snapped back.
- This says it was not a learned thing, but rather, it was a cost/benefit analysis. If there is a benefit of bullying, they may be tempted.
- Keva – a program where kids say, “we’re not going to give status to a bully” – this reduces the (potential or perceived) benefit of bullying, and it appears to have a 20-25% reduction in bullying. (1:00:30)
- But only works on medium level popularity kids. The high popularity kids keep on bullying – they don’t really care about the opinion of the groups that were rejecting bullying.
- Can keep someone too busy (involved in too many sports) to bully.
- Walmart-greeter in a class (1:02:00) – prosocial experience reduces bullying.
- They get what they want without them hurting others.
- Shift to pro-social methods.
- This is found to reduce overall school violence by 70%.
- BOTH CARROT AND STICK.
- Donald Trump (1:03:36) is a bully who has been very successful
- He ticked the boxes for being aggressive, kicking down has worked.
- (1:09:30) from the BBC study, only 20% of the time is there an adult present. Half of those, the adult does nothing.
- Picked on kid – a bit weird, less social skills, less affinity from the teacher – (1:10:05) THinks that the stereotype of a bully being almost losers was when a bully-victim was now bullying, and those were the kids that teachers caught. The ones with superior social skills say (1:10:55) “we were just kidding” and teachers just let that go.
- (1:11:25) Chris’s story from being kneed in the head.
- Socially inept, mostly unlikable to adults.
- One time, during drama class, a bully took his homework. Kneed him in the head. He was upset. The Drama teacher got Chris sent away.
- Lack of social capacity as a kid makes you more vulnerable to bullying, makes you less believable to the adults in power (as a kid).
- (1:12:43) in what ways can fighting back be constructive?
- The best thing to do is to recognize that this is a cowardly un-fair fight. So bringing in support, friends. Change it to an arena where you have power. If you’re going to do it, then do it privately.
- Has written Op-Eds that if you corner Putin, you need to negotiate privately. If you force Putin to face the music publicly, (it would appear you are fighting a cornered animal)
- (1:15:45) – one of the skills that bullies have is quickly pivoting to behaving like the other person is being unreasonable. “Why are you over-reacting????” <- socially skilled enough to flip the script on the victim.
- (1:16:01) So what would you say to parents of a bully?
- being a coward. This behavior is likely to keep happening in life – with siblings, with peers, with you when you’re elderly, in workplace, with spouse, with your grandchildren. If you don’t want to live with this, step in and intervene.
- (1:17:08) don’t buy their excuses. If they’re willing to bully, they’re willing to lie.
- Do you know that there is a power imbalance? Do you know that this is not something that I support? Shorter leash, follow up with teachers, happy to be contacted – essentially making it more costly. They’re not going to be believed if they’re just teasing.
- Also: Carrot & Stick.
- Kids that are being bullied – will often not want to go to the place of the bullying. This is a big red flag.
- (1:20:00) far too many people who believe that bullying is a rite-of-passage.
- Bullying affects your immune response for decades. Affects your gene response for decades.
- Having friends reduces the long term impacts of bullying. You really need to hear from a peer that you’re a good person, you’re not worthless.
- Lifelong risks of mental health. Mostly suicide, some violence affects.
- Anything that offsets the anxiety and depression helps. Sports, exercise, connections, friends. But they also have risk factors if bullying is present in those things.
- (1:27:40) Chris Williamson gained competency in areas that were valued by other people (was college bound in a town of 1,000,000 people) and this caused a rise in status, and this freed him from the isolation (my word) he felt when he was bullied.
- He played Cricket well, but it was a bourgeois sport in a working class town and he gained no status.
- Figure out your kid’s interests and develop their skills to help their confidence and perhaps their status/self-worth.
- “She would rather be with bullies than be alone and isolated.”
- “Well, here i am, I am 12 years old again and I hate my life” <- Chris, speaking about how he would feel if his kid was being bullied.
- Hated “using excuses like, well, he comes from a rough home.”
- Feels so unfair – I am given less sympathy and held to a higher standard – always hated using excuses of broken home.
- More machiavellian, less desperate. Annoying but vindicating.
- (1:34:58) Volk – bullies are being assholes and are ruining it for everyone else.
- For people who are doing it regularly –
- Best way to be popular and liked – is to be powerful and kind (1:35:40). Those are the people who are thought of positively in an enduring way.
- Feels so unfair – I am given less sympathy and held to a higher standard – always hated using excuses of broken home.
- 23 years ago – look at primates in the wild
- 50-100 animals in a tribe (1:27)
- Critical prerequisites – great ecosystem for a baboon
- 3hours to get food.
- 9hours per day to be “shitty” to other baboons
- We don’t get ulcers from locusts (because we’re protected from that)
- Some other baboon (2:45) has worked hard to make sure you’re miserable.
- Obvious hierarchy has difference in quality of life.
- 3:24 – midranking male has an impala – 2 days worth of protein in 20 minutes – has to give it up after #1 takes away (“exploiting the labors of the working class”)
- Did not involve fighting – baboons know their place when the hierarchy is stable.
- What goes into being high ranking? Violence (4:09)
- Teeth bigger and sharper than lions
- Politically idiotic guy faces coalition of 6 baboons (4:36). Picture of his skull at 4:40
- Threats of violence – “Look, remember what happened last time? Don’t mess with me.” (5:01) – threats of aggression.
- If it was only violence or threats of violence, they would not be interesting. Psychological stress.
- (5:05) – picture of dominant male sitting 6’ away from couple that is bonding. Subtle stress.
- “Stressing the hell out of each other.”
- “What makes for psychological stress? Ambiguous social interactions. Studies show more likely to have a stress response, believe it was stressful, more likely to get a disease, if you perceive you have no control, no predictability, no outlet for releasing your stress, no social support.
- (6:24) two rats – the one with a warning doesn’t get an ulcer. Stressors are less stressful for the animal with the four things above.
- 7:00 male that is courting a female – high ranking male stalking them by six feet, for three days, harassing the consortship. 40% of the time, the lower ranking guy will just give up. (7:45) grinding psychological stress. Not violence. Not threats of violence. Just grinding psychological stress.
- 8:00 building coalition – backup for a fight.
- 8:40 you don’t know when your backup will bail out in a life-or-death fight.
- 9:38 – displacement aggression
- Almost 50% is bystander aggression. 3rd party who was minding their own business. Lack of control, lack of predictability. (chain….)
- 10:13 – Extremely complicated social world. knowing which fights to get into, which ones to avoid. Which coalitions to join, not to form, and which coalitions to stab in the back.
- Also – having a body that deals well with stress. (10:52) what does your social rank have to do with how your body deals with stress.
- 11:10 – “Jane Goodall” – and, in addition, physiological measurements. Whole science for how you do that.
- Anesthetic that does not change hormonal levels. Same time of day. COntrol for circadian rhythms. Cannot dart sick, injured. Basal steroid hormone levels. Cholesterol from animals that haven’t eaten breakfast yet. Can’t dart someone who knows it is coming – no anticipatory stress. 1st blood sample within 90 seconds of him going down. CSF taps and tissue biopsy (by 12:32) Hand cranked centrifuge. Sneak your samples past customs for analysis by a lab.
- Sluggish response to stress, elevated basal gulcocorticoid secretion, sluggish recovery <- all adrenocortical profile of low-ranking baboons. Perpetual high stress. No control, no predictability, few outlets for releasing stress, and no or low social support.
- 14:20 – a theme shown in 20 different social species – low ranking animals having elevated basal glucocorticoid levels.
- 14:49 A low ranking baboon has the same profile as a human with major depression. (15:11) – the jargon in studying depression is “learned helplessness” List of physiological systems that respond to this stress in a negative way
- Elevated basal glucocorticoids, elevated blood pressure, fewer circulated lymphocites, suppressed levels of HDL cholesterol, lower insulin-like growth factors, <- you are set up to have socially driven stress related disease.
- Rank is important. But the hierarchy must be stable.
- …”came from where 90% of the interactions are reinforcing the status quo – stable dominance hierarchies.(17:10)
- (Unstable) Some critical male dies, somebody transfers into the troop, a coalition falls apart, all hell breaks loose.
- Everybody’s fighting every three hours, ranks are shifting every three hours, nobody’s grooming, coalitions form and fall apart quickly, nobody is mating, and “the mail is not being delivered.”
- (18:14) in an unstable hierarchy, “you’re right in the middle of the revolution” (even if you’re an otherwise-high-ranking baboon) (18:08) in a stable hierarchy you have all of the psychological advantages of high dominance, and the physiological advantages, too. But in that unstable hierarchy, (18:26) both the psychological advantages and the physiological advantages go away for the same males. Society (stable), not just rank.
- 19:18 – nobody wants to be the first guy to stand up to him and see what he’s made of, and as long as he just keeps pushing, he can get away with it as long as he wants.
- 19:47 – he is stressing everybody, he is immunosupressing everybody, this was a very stressful period.
- Sapolsky was able to dart this (wildcard “psycho” outsider) guy two weeks in. (20:05). This was the most immunosuppressed individual he had ever seen – being a bastard 24 hrs per day has an enormous cost..
- 20:26 – he preferentially attacked females to show what a tough guy. Tracked the # of times the females had been attacked. The more often a female had been attacked, the lower the lymphocytes were (more immunosuppressed) in females.
- If you’re lucky enough to be a female on the sidelines, you’re not affected. If you got attacked, you had a negative measurable physiological response.
- 21:34 – personality. Temperament, responsivity. If you lose a fight do you mope? How readily do they form coalitions? How often do they form consortships? How often do they play with kids. Look on the bright side…? Stable traits of the 25 year lifespan
- Came up with 60 different variables. Anthropomorphized like crazy – the baboon equivalent of having a hobby, look on the bright side.
- Highest ranking guy on the block without positive personality still had poor physiological responses.
- Can you tell the difference between threatening and neutral interactions?
- Your worst rival shows up and is 1 foot from your face with a threat. This is dangerous, per Sapolsky. You (as a baboon) need to respond.
- (23:40) Your worst rival takes a nap 100 yards away from you – this is a neutral interaction. Don’t respond.
- Your average male baboon gets just as upset by the 100 yards away – typeA personality – this is seeing provocations that other people don’t. You see stressors that nobody else does. (this was all after
- (24:38) do you passively let the aggressive guy start the fight, or do you at least get a little bit of control by starting the fight
- Can you tell the difference between whether you won or lost the fight. If you can’t tell the difference, you get significantly worse glucocorticoid
- If you lost, do you mope by yourself, do you find a way to pass off the stress (picking on someone else).
- Being socially disconnected, after controlling for rank, is the single strongest predictor for poor health, mortality, stress outcomes
- In humans a three fold difference in outcomes between the socially isolated and the socially connected..
- We are not getting our stress from being chased by a sabre-toothed tiger, we are getting our stress from invented social stress (from one another) (by 29:00)
There are other relevant videos to these which the viewer may want to also be aware of. Most of them are interviews with Dr. Sapolsky which are about one hour long each. One of them is a 7 minute video on the “3 layered brain model” – Lizard (Automatic) / Limbic (Emotional) / Cortex (Abstract) brain layers.
The last video is an additional video done by Dr. Volk about six months after his first video with the Modern Wisdom channel. It says one thing remarkably better than the Modern Wisdom interview, but otherwise supplies almost the same utility to the “bullying” blog that I wrote.
All of these notes are notes I wrote when I was listening to the video. I supply them for transparency. It serves my purpose for people to see that yes, I spent time thinking about what was said in each of these interviews, and then later challenged myself – can I point to the time in the video where the subject (Dr. Volk, Dr. Sapolsky) said the thing I’m claiming they said. Why? I always want to be in accord with the truth. ALWAYS. If my romantic partner says something I don’t like, but is pretty much true, *then it is my problem*, even if I wanted them to be (perhaps) more delicate in presenting it to me. I seek truth. That’s just who I am. I need that if I am to achieve my goal of starting the greatest platform for civics knowledge (and one day, action) in the history of the entire world.
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